Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 3) - 60ft Harriman ADL

Last year, in August 2016, with much chatter on the various groups about the pre-production publicity photos on Golden Gate Depot's website announcing five newly tooled Harriman Passenger Car models in HO and O-scales.  In the 'Golden Gate Depot's New "Harriman" Cars - Thoughts on the prototype cars' blog I covered the prototype information on the various models that Golden Gate Depot were announcing via their photos of other models.

Golden Gate Depot's new "Harriman" passenger cars in HO scale

A couple of weeks ago I received an offer from Golden Gate Depot to do a review for this blog of the five (5) carbody styles using a set of six pilot models.  Golden Gate Depot is offering these cars for sale both in a 6-car set (reviewed here) and single cars.  The MSRP $539.95 for 6 car set and
MSRP $89.95 per car individually.  All of the cars reviewed are painted in the Southern Pacific (SPG) Dark Olive Green with Delux Gold lettering, which is correct for cars painted after June 1946.  Some car types are offered with up to six different numbers applied.

I will be using the Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society Passenger Car books, Volumes 1 (Coaches & Chair Cars) and 3 (Headend Cars - Baggage and Railway Post Office), and photos of other models from various manufactures as references relating to prototype measurements and details.  ** I do not consider myself to be one of the "True Experts in SP passenger cars", because other than what I've read in the books listed above and other publicly available information used to gauge these models by I don't have any extra resources than any serious modeler of the SP and passenger equipment of 2012-2017+ should have.

In 'Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 2), I briefly looked over the 60ft Harriman 'Business Car'.  In this review I'll be taking a close look at the Golden Gate Depot All-Day-Lunch (ADL) car,

History of All Day Lunch Cars

The All-Day-Lunch cars were a concept that the SP came up with to bridge the gap between a full dining car with china and crystal and the 'News Agent' cars which were a sandwich, coffee, and newspaper affair setup in a small nook or between a couple of seats in the first coach of the train.

Left side of Golden Gate Depot's SP 10519 All-Day-Lunch car (60-C-4 rebuild) - Note the "high window" at left end.

The first, and easiest way to pick out an ADL car from other 'normal' coaches is the conversion of the first South East corner (SE) wide window to a 'high' kitchen style window, normally found on dining cars and cafe-lounge cars.  This upper pane was able to be opened and food-stuffs passed through into the pantry and kitchen spaces of the car.

The SP 10519 was originally a 60-C-4 coach which was rebuilt as an ADL in 1930 for the premier service on the heavyweight Daylight train (painted Pearl Gray) running between Los Angeles and San Fransisco.  This Daylight in Pearl Gray was repainted during the depression in standard Dark Olive Green, and then resurrected in 1937 as the Daylight panted in the brilliant Red, Orange, and Black scheme.

Golden Gate Depot  60ft 'Lunch' car #4

A total of 25 ADL's were converted in 1929 and 1930.  These cars were assigned to name trains such as: Pacific Limited (Nos.19/20) 3 cars, Fast Mail (No.9) 1 car, Salt Lake (No.10) 1 car, Oregonian (Nos.13/14) 4 cars, West Coast (Nos.15/16) 3 cars (Sac-Portland), Klamath (Nos.7/8) 3 cars, Daylight Limited (Nos.71/72), San Joaquin (Nos.51/52) - 2 cars - Heavyweight train - not the Daylight version, Sequia (Nos.57/58) 2 cars, Governor/Bay Cities Passenger (Nos.30/209) 1 car.

Here's the Pantry-Kitchen compartment on the GGD model. - I would probably open the car and paint the kitchen silver.

The cars had a small kitchen-pantry space set up in the "West End" of the car.  The window (usually on the SW corner of the cars of 60-C-3 and -4) was converted to be a kitchen-pantry style window allowing direct loading through the window into the partitioned kitchen-pantry of food items.  - A modeling note here: SP usually had stainless steel appliances and fittings in the kitchens.  I did not attempt to open these sample models to see how hard it would be to paint the interior, but it would be one of the things I did to upgrade the model to my usual level of detail and finish.

In floor Plan 951 (March 1937) on Page 66 of SPH&TS SP Passenger Cars Vol.1 used on the SP 10511, 10512, 10513, 10516, 10519, and 10520 (renumbered from SP 1834, 1838, 1839, 1855, 1860 and 1861) shows the floor plan that I believe most closely matches the GGD model.

In 1935-37, 13 of the ADL's were downgraded to News Agent cars.  This left 12 ADLs in service.  Two of which (SP 10517 & 10518) were equipped with air conditioning in June and July 1937 and were assigned to regularly work on Trains 71 & 72 between Los Angeles and San Fransisco until WWII.

Air Conditioned ADL Cars - SP 10517 & 10518

These are the modifications needed to fix the GGD model to be correct for the SP 10517 or 10518 with Air Conditioning.

Only the 10517 and 10518 were rebuilt with AC, which also involved the removal of the roof vents and installations of extra roof vents for the AC systems.

Both SP 10517 and 10518 received Air Condidtioning in 1937 and were used on the Suntan Specials between San Fransisco and Santa Cruz well into the late 1950s.  These cars received floor mounted AC units in a small compartment formed from partitioning off the SE longitudinal seat across the isle from the toilet.  This modification also required a square vent out the carside below the belt rail and the window to be replaced and covered with sheet metal.  Both the 'high' pantry windows were also changed to have a higher lower sill (covering about 1/3 of the total opening).  This modification seemed to be done with many of the SP's Diners and Cafe-Lounges about the same time.

The SW ex-toilet window was also plated over on both cars.  One photo of 10517 still shows transom windows remaining on the other windows in the car.  A photo of SP 10518 shows the car in 1952 with the transoms plated over.

ADL Service Fades Away

By the end of the war in late 1945, only SP 10503 and SP 10512 retained their tables and counter stools.  The other seven cars still in ADL service had them removed and had ice boxes installed in their place.

Dining Tables & Seats. - Golden Gate Depot 60ft Harriman All-Day-Lunch.

Pillow Lockers were also installed between 1947-1949.  Some cars had these in the SW and others in the NE vestibule, the SP Passenger Car Vol.1 lists the cars as SP 10511, 10517, 10518, 10520 in the NE, and SP 10503 and 10512 in the SW.  The doors were removed and sheet metal was installed over the exterior opening.

Second toilets were reinstalled by 1949 in the SP 10503 and 10512 in the SE corner opposite their remaining toilet.  Up to six tables were installed in these two cars in August 1952.  These cars were often assigned to the Suntan Specials and special trains.  In 1954 the 10503 and 10512 were renumbered to 10523 and 10524, clearing numbers for the new experimental HW Hamburger-Grills being converted from HW diners.

SP 10513 was the only ADL to stay with Plan 951 from conversion until retirement, it received the iceboxes in 1945, and was converted to a Express Rider Crew Car in 1953 as SP 2823.  The remaining ADL's probably served in a more limited capacity as a News Agent space until retired.  Between 1953 and 1955 all seven remaining ADL cars were retired and assigned to service as 2800-series Crew Cars.  The last regular assignment of an ADL was on the Portland-Ashland Trains 329/330, the Rogue River in 1949.

SP 10519 - Post-1946

In 1945 several cars (10511, 10513, 10516-10520) were refitted with ice boxes on both sides of the isle in place of the tables and chairs.  Also in 1945 four cars (10511, 10516, 10519, 10520) were fitted with a Aid Station (room) in the opposite end of the car from the ADL compartment for helping passengers sort out travel arrangements, ticketing issues, etc.  A photo of the 10511 in this configuration shows at Oakland in 1952 on page 69 of the SPHTS SP Passenger Cars Vol.1 (bottom left photo).  The photo shows the isle side of the Aid Station, with a safety handrail in place across the second narrow window and first wide window.  Jeff Cauthen was kind enough to contact Steve Peery about the details of Plan 953, which I received a copy of to confirm this information.  The room window (first large window on the "North East" side of the car was shortened to 29.25" keeping the center side framing and blanking the old outer section of the window towards the car end. - I've not seen a photo of the north side of one of these cars in this arrangement, but needless to say after 1945 the SP 10519 would be significantly different looking than even the plain ADL look.

"North" side of the GGD ADL car. - Note, "high window" on this side is NOT correct.

Corrections Needed for "Late ADLs"

For those modelers willing to put in the extra work to model these cars as they appeared after 1945 with the plated over windows they might make nice cars.  However, trying to back date the cars to have the earlier transom windows would also be a major chore.

Correction for Isle Windows for All-Day-Lunches

Here's a closer view of the tables and chairs, and also of the incorrect "High Kitchen" window on the car's 'North' side.

Underbody Corrections

Also the ADL cars had extra gas tanks mounted under the floor as shown here on this PSC brass model.

Battery box and gas tanks under the South side of the car (ADL room to the left end). - PSC model show.

Underframe modifications are more basic, but will include adding the two big cooking gas tanks, one on each side of the Battery Box.  The Battery Box on the GGD car is actually on the wrong side of the car as well.  It might be possible to flip the entire underframe detail molded section around before adding the tanks.  Addition of the tanks themselves shouldn't be too hard to do.  (Note: the PSC model doesn't have the correct 'high' pantry-kitchen window, so that's always fun to add to a brass model.)

Correction for ADL with Aid Station

Corrections to "North" side for  post-1945 ADL service. - The correction at left is only for Aid Station cars.

The "North" side of the ADLs should look more like this with the Aid Station.  The orange correction to the left is for the 1945 Aid Station.  The car as modified for the Aid Station had a second toilet installed at the "East" end of the car, inboard of the Aid Station compartment, using the modified 'narrower' window.  The orange correction to the right side of the car, where the isle is around the ADL compartment is and should be a normal height window with a safety bar across the window.

Removal of several rows of coach seating and addition of interior partitions would also need to be added for the Aid Station.

Roof Issues

Coach seating in the ADL 10519 looks pretty good - but the roof seams are not correct.

Also, as on the coaches and business car the roof panels of the GGD cars are not riveted at the lap-joints, but instead some sort of welded bead is modeled.  Fixing this will not be easy at all.  It stands out compared to the other models that are available on the market.

Conclusion

It is unfortunate that GGD modeled the cars with the errors listed above.  Most of them are really hard things to fix.  I had higher hopes that this unique service car would be available without major rebuilding.

I'll be looking at the 'Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 4) - Baggage and RPO' cars in the next review.

Links to Related Articles:

Thoughts on New Golden Gate Depot "Harriman" Cars (August 2016 - Announcement)

Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 1) - 60ft Harriman Coaches

Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 2) - 60ft Harriman Business Car

Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 4) - 70ft Harriman Baggage, RPO-Baggage, & Conclusions

Modeling Index of SP Heavyweight Passenger Classes - General index of SP passenger car models.

Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 2) - 60ft Harriman Business

Last year, in August 2016, with much chatter on the various groups about the pre-production publicity photos on Golden Gate Depot's website announcing five newly tooled Harriman Passenger Car models in HO and O-scales.  In the 'Golden Gate Depot's New "Harriman" Cars - Thoughts on the prototype cars' blog I covered the prototype information on the various models that Golden Gate Depot were announcing via their photos of other models.

Golden Gate Depot's new "Harriman" passenger cars in HO scale

A couple of weeks ago I received an offer from Golden Gate Depot to do a review for this blog of the five (5) carbody styles using a set of six pilot models.  Golden Gate Depot is offering these cars for sale both in a 6-car set (reviewed here) and single cars.  The MSRP $539.95 for 6 car set and
MSRP $89.95 per car individually.  All of the cars reviewed are painted in the Southern Pacific (SPG) Dark Olive Green with Delux Gold lettering, which is correct for cars painted after June 1946.  Some car types are offered with up to six different numbers applied.

I will be using the Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society Passenger Car books, Volumes 1 (Coaches & Chair Cars) and 3 (Headend Cars - Baggage and Railway Post Office), and photos of other models from various manufactures as references relating to prototype measurements and details.  ** I do not consider myself to be one of the "True Experts in SP passenger cars", because other than what I've read in the books listed above and other publicly available information used to gauge these models by I don't have any extra resources than any serious modeler of the SP and passenger equipment of 2012-2017+ should have.

In 'Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 1) - 60ft Harriman Coaches' I covered the new Coaches from GGD.  In this post I turn my attention to the SP 109, advertised as a 60ft 'Business' car.

Left side of the Golden Gate Depot SP 109 "Business Car".

The SP usually went for longer cars to be used as Business cars.  One of these cars went to the NWP to be used as their business car, becoming the NWP 06 "Redwood".  The T&NO had a couple of cars of this length as well.  I'll cover more of this below dealing with the interior.

Golden Gate Depot '60ft Business Car #1"

Mechanical

This model generally follows the same mechanical arrangements as seen in Part 1.  The length is the same on the 60ft Business car model as the 60ft Coaches.  The main visual differences being that this car has the open 'observation' platform to the rear with the safety gate and rails surrounding it.  Also the car has the 'painted over' transom windows instead of the 'patched over' look which the Golden Gate Depot 60ft Coaches have.

Historical Info

I've not had a chance to look in SP Passenger Cars Vol.5 and no steel 60ft Observation cars show up there.  So this car might be covered in SP Passenger Cars Vol.6 - Business cars, which I do not have a copy of on hand.  The Common Standard Passenger Train Cars Southern Pacific Lines, March 1, 1933 doesn't have anything on this type of car either.  John Ruehle provided me with the following information and photos from his heavily modified Soho Sp 109 project.

Originally a 60-C-8 coach, SP 109 was rebuilt and became the T&NO 992, "Dallas" business car in 1922.  The T&NO rebuilt several cars of this same plan into business cars for the T&NO.  Some migrated west to the Pacific Lines over the years.  SP 109 spent some time on the San Joaquin Division, and for a short time wore the name "San Joaquin" while based out of Bakersfield and Fresno.

Also most SP business cars had a couple of sleeping compartments, at least one for the official who the car was assigned to.  Often a couple of other compartments were provided for the cook and an assistant or two for the official.

John Ruehle was kind enough to send me three photos of his highly modified SP 109, circa 1962.

Right side of SP 109, circa 1962. - John Ruehle photo, used with permission.

From the SP Business Car book, these cars once converted from the 60-C-8 coaches always were configured as business cars.  This included a kitchen and crew quarters in the front right corner of the car.  The paired windows on the right side were sleeping compartments for the Officers who used the car.  Often a couple of other compartments were provided for the cook and an assistant or two for the official. 

Dining Room of the ex-CN Business car, now Private Car 'Tioga Pass', looking forward. - Jason Hill Photo October 20. 2017.

On the SP 109, there was a dining room and table mid-car, which could also be used to look over engineering drawings.  The lounge and observation section of the car is located inside the rear sets of windows (on both sides of the car).  This area usually includes very comfortable parlor-chairs and couches for inspection trips of the railroad and general meeting space for conducting business.

Left side of SP 109, circa 1962. - John Ruehle photo, used with permission.

The left side of the car was basically covered in the old coach windows, adjacent to the isle the length of the car from the lounge in the rear up to the forward end opposite the kitchen accessing the vestibule.

Roof & End Details

The SP 109 model has square "Utility" style roof vents, which differ from the 60-C-5 coaches, and is correct for the 60-C-8 origins of the SP 109.  There is also a a simple centerline conduit for the electric lighting.

End view of the Golden Gate Depot SP 109.

The end railing and windows are decently molded.  There is a striker plate at the rear of the platform to land the lower part of another passenger car diaphragm if this car was running in the middle of a passenger train.  The Steam and Air/Signal lines are also visible in this view.  Because of the moving coupler box, they are set outboard of the usual location for them.

The roof of the GGD car (above) seems to match fairly well with John Ruehle's super-detailed model (below). 

Roof of SP 109, circa 1962. - John Ruehle photo, used with permission.

Interior of GGD Car

Moving over to the GGD model, the right side of the SP 109 is more interesting than the left side in terms of the car's interior furnishings.

Right side of Golden Gate Depot's 60ft 'Business' Car

The right side of the car has what would appear to be bathrooms or very narrow (not even to the center isle) compartments (which should be the kitchen & crew space) at the front right corner of the car.  These compartments however do not cross the center isle as they should.  In the middle of the car there is also an annex (toilet) compartment.  However instead of a 'business car' arrangement for the interior as described above, the rest of the car is full of rearward facing bench seating.

Up close details of the Golden Gate Depot SP 109 'Business' Car

I'm not sure where GGD came up with this floor plan for the car.  From what research I've been able to do with the help of several other people looking in the SP Passenger Cars Vol.6 Business Car book, by SPH&TS, it would seem that the SP 109 and her sister cars never hand an interior anywhere near this configuration.

Conclusions - GGD 60ft 'Business Car'

Rear view of Golden Gate Depot, SP 109

Given the oddity of the prototype of this car, I have to wonder if Golden Gate Depot was simply looking for the 'sterotypical' consist of cars in the trainset: Mail Car, Baggage Car, Coaches, Food Car, Observation Car.  I suppose with some kitbashing of the interior this model could be rearranged to be configured more like a business car.  I would say right now it's more of a 'viewing' coach-observation type configuration.

In 'Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 3)', I take a close look at the All-Day-Lunch car.

Jason Hill

Links to Related Articles:

Thoughts on New Golden Gate Depot "Harriman" Cars (August 2016 - Announcement)

Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 1) - 60ft Harriman Coaches

Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 3) - 60ft Harriman All-Day-Lunch

Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 4) - 70ft Harriman Baggage, RPO-Baggage, & Conclusions

Modeling Index of SP Heavyweight Passenger Classes - General index of SP passenger car models.

Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 4) - 70 Baggage & RPO

Last year, in August, with much chatter on the various groups about the pre-production publicity photos on Golden Gate Depot's website announcing five newly tooled Harriman Passenger Car models in HO and O-scales.  In the 'Golden Gate Depot's New "Harriman" Cars - Thoughts on the prototype cars' blog I covered the prototype information on the various models that Golden Gate Depot were announcing via their photos of other models.

Golden Gate Depot's new "Harriman" passenger cars in HO scale

A couple of weeks ago I received an offer from Golden Gate Depot to do a review for this blog of the five (5) carbody styles using a set of six pilot models.  Golden Gate Depot is offering these cars for sale both in a 6-car set (reviewed here) and single cars.  The MSRP $539.95 for 6 car set and
MSRP $89.95 per car individually.  All of the cars reviewed are painted in the Southern Pacific (SPG) Dark Olive Green with Delux Gold lettering, which is correct for cars painted after June 1946.  Some car types are offered with up to six different numbers applied.

I will be using the Southern Pacific Historical & Technical Society Passenger Car books, Volumes 1 (Coaches & Chair Cars) and 3 (Headend Cars - Baggage and Railway Post Office), and photos of other models from various manufactures as references relating to prototype measurements and details.  ** I do not consider myself to be one of the "True Experts in SP passenger cars", because other than what I've read in the books listed above and other publicly available information used to gauge these models by I don't have any extra resources than any serious modeler of the SP and passenger equipment of 2012-2017+ should have.

In 'Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 3), I looked over the new 60ft Harriman ADL car model.  In this review I'll be looking at the two "Head-end" cars which Golden Gate Depot has designed for release in HO-scale: the 70ft Baggage and the 70ft RPO (baggage-RPO combo).

Overview

These two models have been missing for a number of years from the HO scale modeler's fleet of SP passenger equipment.  Until now. they've only been available in brass (Soho, PSC, CoachYard, etc) or Southern Car & Foundery resin kits.  I've been especially looking forward to a nice 70ft SP baggage to fill out several of my consists for the Owl, West Coast, and Tehachapi Mail among others.

Golden Gate Depot  Harriman '70ft Baggage' - Battery box side

Because both of these cars use almost identical tooling on the baggage portion, I'll save time and bandwidth by posting the review of these cars together.  Mechanically the two bodies are identical with the same 6-wheel trucks replacing the 60ft car's 4-wheel trucks.  The couplers are mounted on the same swing-extending designed draftgear as the shorter cars.  The underframe is also cast in one-piece as well.

Golden Gate Depot Harriman '70ft RPO' - Left side

As before I'm showing the box ends, it would appear that these cars might be offered in multiple car numbers.

Golden Gate Depot's 70ft Baggage #2 - SP 6475

Golden Gate Depot 70ft PRO #1 - SP 5196

Now that we've seen these overview photos let's look them over more closely.

Harriman SP 70ft Baggage

The prototype SP 6475 was a 70-B-5 class car, one of the 145 or so cars of this length and door arrangement built for the SP, CP, & T&NO.  T&NO's preceding subsidiaries also ordered some of this class, which were absorbed into the T&NO before 1930, so I'll just call those T&NO cars.  (Side Note: There were other 70-BA-class cars which incorporated an end-door into the basic 70-B-series body design.  I will not be covering those here, because this model has solid-style ends)

Golden Gate Depot SP 6475 3/4 end view

My previewing of certain photos that Golden Gate Depot released tipped me off that something was a little weird about these cars.  From the photos I was able to figure out that the trucks had been moved inboard from the ends of the car.  I'm not unfamiliar with this being a practice of some manufactures to allow for their models to run on very tight radius curves, such as 18" and 22".

Baggage end of SP 5124, a 70-BP-30-2 (left) and GGD 6475 Baggage (right) show how far off the trucks and windows are.

I use the windows near the end of the car to gauge where the trucks centers should be.  This is pretty easy to do, as the windows should line up almost centered on the middle axle of the 3-axle trucks, as on the SP 5124 in the photo above.  I could see in the preview photos that they're off by about 24", which I figured I'd be moving out and fixing like I've done before on the SP 6102 and many of my other head-end cars.



The coupler boxes on these cars both swing and also extend out from the end of the car as the draftgear is pulled off center.  This should allow the car to go around pretty tight curves.

What caught me totally by surprise when I opened the box and pulled the Baggage car out was how short it was!  I reached for my trusty scale ruler and measured it over the corners of the car, which should be 70 feet 0 inches on the endsills, which are inside of the ends of the car.  In other words, the internal open length of the floor should be 70ft, with the ends and diaphragms extending farther out to about 72 feet 10 inches overall.  The model measured out at 64 feet 4" over the corner posts, a full 6 feet short!

In the photo below I've placed a piece of Atlas Code 83 track on top of a Soho 70ft Baggage car (correct length) and squared up the right side with my machinist' square.

Golden Gate Depot SP 6475 (top) and Soho SP 6444 (bottom) comparing lengths.  GGD is WAY too short

I've compiled the numbers for the various spacings of the features of the doors and windows for the GGD car against the prototype drawings in both the 'Diagrams Common Standard Passenger Train Cars Southern Pacific Lines, as of March 1933. (SPH&TS Eighth Edition, Oct 1999) and the SPH&TS SP Passenger Cars Vol.3, Head End Cars book, as shown below:

Measurements                           Prototype        Model            Error
Car Length - over end sills      = 70ft 0in          ~64ft 4in      5'8" Short
Length Over All Pulling          = 72ft 10in          66ft 0in      6'10" Short
Endsill-to-window                   = 80.75in          70.8125in     9.94" Short (each end)
Window Width                         = 29in                 33.35in       4.36" Long (each end)
Blank Wall (Window & door)  = 13ft 3.75in     12ft 0.5in    15.16" Short (each end)
Door Width                               = 7ft 0in                 6.69ft       3.69" Short (each end)
Center Blank Wall                    = 11ft 1in               10.16ft    11.08" Short (centered)

I also noticed almost immediately something I'd missed in all the preview photos that I've seen of this car before.  There are no vertical rivet rows in the side sheets of the car!  Also, beyond that, there's no steps of extra material on the 'belt rails' under the rivets there either.  The whole car side is flat, with no relief of detailing at all.

Quickly, let's look at the underframes...

Golden Gate Depot  one-piece underframe - no diamond cross bracing.

Above is the GGD underframe, typical of the new GGD cars with only the two needle-beams crossing under the centersill, correct for 60ft cars, but not 69 and 70ft cars.  Below is the underframe of SP 5199, with the correct 3 needle-beam cross members crossing under the centersill and also the diamond shaped cross bracing between the outer needle-beams and the trucks.

Southern Car & Foundry underframe with diamond cross bracing.

Roofs?

Golden Gate Depot's "Welded" roof ribs, not prototypes' lapped panels with rivets.

The roofs have the same welded seams that the Coaches, Business Car, and ADL had, which I've discussed before in the previous GGD review posts.

Well, let's move on....

Harriman 70ft RPO

Golden Gate Depot 70ft RPO (Baggage) - right RPO end view

GGD "SPG 70ft RPO #1"

The RPO-Baggage in the set is lettered as the SP 5196, which should be a 69-BP-30-3, the first in a group of four cars (SP 5196-5199).

GGD SP 5196 "70ft RPO #1" Right Side

GGD SP 5196 "70ft RPO #1" Left Side

The model at first glance compared to a 69-BP-30-3 looks quite different, T&NO 141 'Sunbeam' PSC model shown below.

T&NO 141 'Sunbeam' model - PSC 69-BP-30-3 class.

The prototype 69-BP-30-3 class cars are noticeably different than the model is primarily in the GGD's model is only 64'4" over the endsills, which is how SP measures its passenger cars.   This is about 3'8" shorter than the 69ft length of the 69-BP-30-3.  Also of note is the 7'0" baggage door instead of the 4'10" door of the 69-BP-30-3s.  The RPO door also is not correctly placed on the side of the car, regardless of where the truck really should be located.  The 69-BP-30-3 RPO doors should be 10'1" in from the end of the car.  The GGD car has the RPO door 7'6" in from the end, off by about 30" (2.5ft).  The windows in the baggage section are also obviously not correctly placed on the GGD model to represent this class car.

So it's pretty clear that the GGD model is not a 69-BP-30-3, so what else might it be closest to?  Let's have a look at the other classes of 70ft RPO-Baggage cars that SP owned.

In my original 'preview thoughts' blog, the photos shown by GGD suggested a 70-BP-30 rebuild car, let's see how it compares to the Soho model, which matches very closely with the prototype on door and window spacing.

GGD SP 5196 & Soho SP 5148 (70-BP-30 Rebuild) squared against left end.

Ok, the GGD car is not a 70-BP-30 rebuilt class.  The unrebuilt 70-BP-30 class cars were 70-BP-15-3s, which looked like 70-BP-30-1s as shown below with the Soho model of SP 5130.

GGD SP 5196 & Soho SP 5130 (70-BP-30-1) also squared to the left end.

The next option is a 70-BP-30-2/3 class car.  For my comparison here I'm using a kitbashed SC&F 69-BP-30-2/3 which has been rebuilt as as 70-BP-30-2 class SP 5124, which I've covered before to some extent.  The doors and windows have been positioned according to the SPH&TS Vol.3 diagrams.

GGD SP 5196 & Kitbashed SC&F 70-BP-30-2 SP 5124 (in Daylight Colors)

So what is the GGD 70ft RPO-Baggage closest to?

The photo above with the SP 5124 is about as close as I can find for an SP 30ft Apartment RPO prototype plan that fits the general layout of windows and doors for the GGD model.  The GGD car is 5'8" shorter than the plan drawings show for 70-BP-30-2/3 cars.  Most of that length difference is in the center section (15.66"), the 7'0" baggage door to the Baggage window (13.4"), with a small amount at the RPO end to RPO door (8.6"), and the balance at the Baggage window to end (10").

Enough Searching - Here's the Prototype

Sunset Models' 3rd Rail O-scale model of a "70ft RPO"

From what I've been able to tell Sunset Models/Golden Gate Depot started with their O-scale model from a few years back.  The GGD Model is a shortened version of a generic "Harriman" Style RPO-Baggage car.  --- This should be no surprise I guess, Golden Gate Depot confirmed by email in Dec 2017 that they're copying their previous "shorty" offerings from O-scale.

GGD SP 5196 - HO version

Also of note is the trucks are moved towards the center of the car, which will generally improve the operations on tighter curves.

Golden Gate Depot car with truck moved away from car end.

The prototype cars had a truck wheel base of 11ft, which GGD's model captures correctly.  The truck centers should be 8ft in from the endsills of the car, on the model they are 10.5ft in from the end of the car.  Many model manufactures move the trucks inward.  Model Die Casting (Now Athearn) Harriman cars have this same change on their 60ft baggage cars.  On these 70ft prototype cars the outer wheelset is very close to the end of the car and would cause some additional challenges for the manufacturer to address for tight curve operation with the coupler box.

GGD SP 5196 - 3/4 end view - No rivets?

One of the major omissions I almost immediately noticed upon removing the car from the box and packaging was the lack of vertical rivet rows at the internal structural members.  I'm not sure why the rivets were overlooked in this version of the car.  The rivets would be a pain to add, but possible with Archer Rivets.

Golden Gate Depot SP 5196 - Right side view.

At 64'4" it's between the 60ft and 69/70ft cars that SP owned.  It will work as a stand-in for small layouts where 'shorty' cars are desired to keep a 'Pike-Size' train from overwhelming the layout, passenger station, staging, etc.

Lighting

Golden Gate Depot' lighting for the SP 5196.

The lighting seems to be about twice as bright on these cars as the MTH Daylight Cars I had around the shop for easiest comparison.  Compared to the lighting I've been doing on my other projects, this is about 4-8 times too bright for my tastes, but then it seems I like my bulbs dimmer than 'normal'.

Golden Gate Depot SP 5196 RPO section lit. - This is as good of a photo as I could get of the 'interior'.

The RPO cars are one place where the prototype would have been using the brightest light bulbs it could find, to make sorting of the mail easier.  I'm not sure how brightly lit the baggage section would have been.  Probably only the 'working' baggage sections with a Train Baggage Man or REA Agent would have been all lit up all night.  A car hauling Storage Mail, I'm sure would have been dimly lit, if at all.

I tried to get a photo showing the interior in the RPO section, but the thick glass combined with the 'safety-security bars' which should be there made it impossible for me to see the quality of the interior in the car, which I've done on other RPOs I've worked on.  Again, I didn't feel I should try to open any of these sample cars, which have to be returned to Golden Gate Depot.

Conclusions for the GGD 70ft Baggage & 70ft RPO

If they suit your small railroad needs because of the tight radius, I could see some merit for these cars finding homes within the "Shorty" pool of models on the market, which include the Athearn "bluebox" HW and LW passenger cars which are only about 70ft instead of 80-85ft long, but I don't see these head-end cars being able to fit happily into a mixed train of brass, resin and scale plastic HO-scale passenger consists without being singled out as incorrect in length immediately.

The underweight issue of the cars only weighing 4.5 ounces is a lingering concern, as is the design of the sprung extending draftgear that forces the coupler off-center when under heavy draft loading.  I'm not sure that will work on trains of more than maybe 6 cars climbing a 2% grade.

As most of the regular readers of this blog know, I'm not one to shy away from slicing up a car body to make something better or more accurate from it.  Unfortunately, I don't see these GGD 70ft Baggages and RPOs as a starting point for anything useful for the prototype scale modeler because of all the 'rubber-banding' of the dimensions of the doors, windows and blank wall sections, combined with the lack of rivet details and roof 'weld beads', not rivets, which makes this almost more work than scratch building.  With the MSRP of $89.95, I can't even really justify these to salvage parts off of for other projects.

Overview of All Six Cars from Golden Gate Depot

Golden Gate Depot SP 1964, 60ft Coach behind a Sunset Models 160-C brass tender.

Overall, I'm disappointed in these models.  I'd hoped they'd be so much more, but it would seem the 'tin-plate' origins that bore these cars could not be shed.

Grading

First, an overall issue with all of the models, and I don't know what more to say about the roofs other than, "why?"  The research for the roof construction has been around since the SPH&TS Passenger Car book series came out over 10 years ago.  Golden Gate Depot really dropped the ball on that one. - Any 'extra credit' that the cars would get for having the other roof detail is pretty much mute, because it will all have to come off during a kitbash to fix the roof joints.

The Coaches probably get by with a "C" grade... they could probably get by running with rebuilt Soho brass cars, but the thick windows and the roofs seams really detract from the scale look of the car.

The Business Car probably gets a "D" also because of the same issues as the coach, combined with the car still having a pseudo-coach interior which a "Business Car" shouldn't have.

The ADL gets a "D" mark because of the mistakes in the tooling with the isle side window being full height.  This is something that could have been very easily checked before finalizing the design.  It is clear that Golden Gate Depot did not check with any of the 'True Experts' ** in SP passenger cars before proceeding past the point-of-no-return with this project.  

Both the Baggage and RPO get "F-minus" marks because of the incorrect length, which was obviously a design 'choice' by Golden Gate Depot.  Which is really too bad, as I was hoping for more good head-end cars for our mail and passenger trains!

** I do not consider myself to be one of these "True Experts in SP passenger cars", because I'm not a source for primary information.  That is to say, other than what I've read and researched in the books that I've listed to measure these models by I don't have any extra resources than the serious modeler of the SP passenger equipment of 2012-2017+ should have.

Jason Hill

Related Links:

Thoughts on New Golden Gate Depot "Harriman" Cars (August 2016 - Announcement)

Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 1) - 60ft Harriman Coaches

Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 2) - 60ft Harriman Business Car

Review - Golden Gate Depot (Part 3) - 60ft Harriman All-Day-Lunch

Modeling Index of SP Heavyweight Passenger Classes - General index of SP passenger car models.